Diesel not the long-term solution

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Diesel not the long-term solution Tuesday, October 07, 2008
The Globe And Mail -- MUNICH, Germany – Last week in Kingston, Ontario, diesel fuel for cars was selling for 13 cents more per litre than regular gasoline. That's according to MJ Ervin & Associates which tracks these things (http://www.mjervin.com/). In the United States it's a similar story. Ten days ago, the U.S. Energy Information Administration said the average U.S. gasoline price was $3.72 per gallon. For diesel it was $3.96, but in reality, the price disparity varies widely in different parts of the U.S., as it does in Canada where the average price last week was $1.27 a litre. So diesel fuel in Canada and the U.S. is more expensive than gasoline and that poses a problem for anyone interested in vehicles with better fuel economy. Diesels, advanced, cleaner diesels, offer a short- to medium-term solution here, but if the fuel is too expensive, buyers will be less likely to pay the premium for a diesel-powered vehicle.
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	Tuesday, October 07, 2008 The Globe And Mail -- MUNICH, Germany – Last week in Kingston, Ontario, diesel fuel for cars was selling for 13 cents more per litre than regular gasoline. That's according to MJ Ervin & Associates which tracks these things (http://www.mjervin.com/). In the United States it's a similar story. Ten days ago, the U.S. Energy Information Administration said the average U.S. gasoline price was $3.72 per gallon. For diesel it was $3.96, but in reality, the price disparity varies widely in different parts of the U.S., as it does in Canada where the average price last week was $1.27 a litre. So diesel fuel in Canada and the U.S. is more expensive than gasoline and that poses a problem for anyone interested in vehicles with better fuel economy. Diesels, advanced, cleaner diesels, offer a short- to medium-term solution here, but if the fuel is too expensive, buyers will be less likely to pay the premium for a diesel-powered vehicle. Visit The Globe And Mail for full article

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dmatte85 Sophomore Author Louisiana Posts:184 Points:16,200 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: 10/9/2008 6:24:23 PM	Ignore dmatte85 Report Abuse
	interesting
Jagman98 All-Star Author Louisville Posts:587 Points:81,820 Joined:Sep 2006	Message Posted: 10/9/2008 8:27:37 AM	Ignore Jagman98 Report Abuse
	I have a 6'3' friend that has been driving his VW Beetle Diesel for years......as everyone was pulling into gas stations in their SUV's joking he was smiling and driving past getting 45-50mpg....
ShawnzTDI Rookie Author Phoenix Posts:77 Points:21,715 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 8:26:43 PM	Ignore ShawnzTDI Report Abuse
	I bought my Diesel Jetta for 9k The only vehicle that would come out better is a high mileage hybrid which is likely looking at a battery replacement in the not so distant future. When I was shopping I looked at the Honda Civic hybrid but every other a it seemed bragged up recent replacement of a $5000 battery pack. VWs are FAR from perfect cars, but I'm VERY happy with this Jetta.
BOINC Rookie Author Springfield Posts:77 Points:430,550 Joined:Dec 2005	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 5:33:05 PM	Ignore BOINC Report Abuse
	America's Oil Export Problem (Yes, Export) William Pentland 10.01.08, 6:00 PM ET The U.S. could cut oil imports by nearly 15% tomorrow without using less gasoline, invading a foreign country or driving up prices at the pump. How? By cutting exports. Yes, exports. This will come as a surprise to many, but in the past four years U.S. oil and petroleum exports have reached four consecutive record highs--at least since the early '80s. In 2007, the U.S. exported 1.43 million barrels of oil per day; up by roughly half a million barrels of oil per day since 2004. During the first half of this year, exports nearly doubled over the same period the preceding year. In June, the U.S. exported the largest amount of oil in a single month in decades--64,985,000 barrels. To put this in perspective, in June 1998, the U.S. exported less than half that amount, or roughly 29,610,000 barrels. Why? Simple. In June 2006, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency required 80% of highway diesel fuel sold in the U.S. to meet new ultra-low sulfur standards similar to those needed for low-polluting gasoline. By 2010, all highway diesel fuel sold in the U.S. must meet these new standards. For better or worse, the EPA did not require oil refiners to invest the estimated $6 to $9 billion in technical improvements needed to meet the low-sulfur standards. As a result, U.S. refiners have continued to produce large amounts of high-sulfur diesel. Because they can't sell it domestically, they've exported it. In other words, the U.S. exports about 12% of its potential diesel supplies. This sudden surge in exports of oil distillates, the primary source for motor diesel fuel consumed in the U.S., occurred at the same time diesel prices hit record highs. In fact, those prices have gotten so high--$4.764 in July--that many truck drivers literally lose money when they work. Those who don't lose money have passed the added costs off to consumers in the form of a fuel surcharge that will slowly but surely raise the cost of doing business in America. Nearly all tractor-trailers, delivery vehicles, buses, trains, ships, boats and barges, farm, construction and military vehicles and equipment run on diesel fuel. Over the past two years, an unprecedented increase in diesel fuel prices has forced scores of independent truck drivers to stop driving trucks for a living. In 2004, the U.S. exported roughly 12 million barrels of oil distillates. Four years later, those exports are on track to reach nearly 150 million barrels. In other words, U.S. diesel fuel exports have risen more than 1,250% between 2004 and 2008. In June, diesel exports reached a record high of nearly 20 million barrels, or more than 20% of the average U.S. monthly diesel fuel consumption--97.6 million barrels per month in 2006. Historically, gasoline has cost more than diesel, which is a byproduct of the oil refining process. But in the past few years, this relationship has reversed itself dramatically. The usual suspects--rising global demand, declining production and foreign oil cartels--have all played a role in the reversal in one way or another, but the primary reason is more complicated. Ironically, while U.S. exports of high-sulfur diesel have risen from roughly 1% to nearly 12% of the total domestic diesel supply, U.S. imports of low-sulfur diesel have jumped from less than 1,000 barrels per day in the first half of 2006 to well over 100,000 barrels per day. In other words, U.S. refiners are exporting U.S. high-sulfur distillates instead of refining it into low-sulfur diesel fuel than can be sold in the U.S. Chile, Mexico and several other countries in Central America have been the leading export markets for high-sulfur U.S. diesel. Meanwhile, U.S. refiners have actually increased the total capacity devoted to producing distillates in the past five years to a record 26.1% of all capacity last year. Diverting capacity to a more profitable product is not manipulation. Diverting output to a more profitable geographic market is a response to market forces, not an attempt to manipulate price. In 2004, gasoline accounted for 46.8% of refinery yields, distillate fuel oil accounted for 23.9% and jet fuel accounted for 9.7%.
duriarte All-Star Author Utah Posts:755 Points:163,565 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 12:18:10 PM	Ignore duriarte Report Abuse
	So if diesel is cheaper to make, then why as consumers are we allowing the refineries and gas stations to charge more? It is about time we stand up and say NO MORE!!!!
rtw777 All-Star Author Florida Posts:995 Points:227,385 Joined:Jan 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 12:10:46 PM	Ignore rtw777 Report Abuse
	Diesel is made before gasoline and is cheaper to make if you don't count the additives that have been mandated in the late 90's.
91Acclaim Veteran Author Maryland Posts:410 Points:84,810 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 12:09:42 PM	Ignore 91Acclaim Report Abuse
	Diesel is cheaper to produce. The sulfur standard is being manipulated right before our eyes.........
MajorSteve All-Star Author Oklahoma City Posts:548 Points:248,070 Joined:Sep 2006	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 11:34:48 AM	Ignore MajorSteve Report Abuse
	Diesel is still too expensive here; we are being ripped off.
sailormon All-Star Author Michigan Posts:669 Points:210,180 Joined:Jul 2007	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:57:05 AM	Ignore sailormon Report Abuse
	Let's do the math: 12000 miles average per year in a Volkswagen Jetta: Gas: $17340 29 mpg Diesel: $21990 40 mpg ($4650 premium cost over the gas unit) Cost of fuel per year Gas= $1539.00 Diesel= $1188.00 Difference= $351 saved by buying the diesel per year. So..Not counting any insurance cost, repair cost or resale value, you have to keep the car for 13 years to make up the difference. Your choice.
acknot All-Star Author Seattle Posts:926 Points:653,480 Joined:Sep 2003	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:52:14 AM	Ignore acknot Report Abuse
	But diesal can be part of the solution.
suzyq2007 Sophomore Author Dallas Posts:188 Points:206,630 Joined:Oct 2007	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:51:22 AM	Ignore suzyq2007 Report Abuse
	I have never had a diesel vehicle and I doubt that I will ever. Maybe they get better gas mileage, but this is just not something that I would consider.
tahoe0708 All-Star Author Cincinnati Posts:931 Points:166,730 Joined:Jan 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:49:43 AM	Ignore tahoe0708 Report Abuse
	diesel at one time was a lot cheaper than gas, what happened,i missed it...
BoerneWatch Champion Author San Antonio Posts:6,496 Points:840,945 Joined:Oct 2005	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:48:49 AM	Ignore BoerneWatch Report Abuse
	With China not trying to show the world how great it is anymore due to the spotlight being taken away, expect diesel to drift lower since the Chinese are no longer buying every gallon of diesel on the planet.
tbybee Veteran Author Omaha Posts:322 Points:113,575 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:48:10 AM	Ignore tbybee Report Abuse
	Cutting the cost of diesel will help all around since so much freight is moved using it.
mooneagle All-Star Author Oklahoma City Posts:727 Points:151,140 Joined:Jun 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:48:00 AM	Ignore mooneagle Report Abuse
	The price of diesel will stay higher then gas because of world demand
NavyEOD Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:2,016 Points:442,315 Joined:Jul 2007	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:47:44 AM	Ignore NavyEOD Report Abuse
	Very true. Alternative fuels.
chemist74 Champion Author Cleveland Posts:6,551 Points:1,055,595 Joined:Apr 2005	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:47:11 AM	Ignore chemist74 Report Abuse
	NissanGirl said "I don't understand how diesel costs more than gas. They don't have to do anything special to get diesel. When they take crude and refine it to gas, what's leftover is diesel. Ridiculous." Obviously you know nothing about refining or diesel demand. 1. Diesel is not just "leftover" from gasoline production. Specs on diesel fuel have been tightened a number of times over the years and there is a lot of additional expensive processing now needed to produce diesel fuel. 2. Demand for diesel is growing faster than demand for gasoline. In some parts of the world, including Europe, half of the new vehicles are already diesel. 3. One get a lot less diesel than gasoline from a barrel of crude. The difference in yield is getting bigger because the low quality crude now available yields less diesel. With demand for diesel growing faster than gasoline, supply of diesel growing less than gasoline and diesel giving more mpg than gasoline, basic economics predicts diesel should be more expensive than gasoline.
2009TDI All-Star Author San Diego Posts:531 Points:99,070 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:46:29 AM	Ignore 2009TDI Report Abuse
	not sure of the point of this article. clean diesel is an excellent short to mid term solution. any reliance on oil could not be considered a long term solution.
Don20 Champion Author Oklahoma City Posts:1,581 Points:1,024,595 Joined:Mar 2005	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:45:21 AM	Ignore Don20 Report Abuse
	It takes less production to produce Diesel than gas. why no one knows. The trade of is that you get more miles per gas..
MedicKirk1 Sophomore Author New Hampshire Posts:198 Points:122,530 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:44:31 AM	Ignore MedicKirk1 Report Abuse
	I just can't afford a diesel right now anyways.
Caspertherat Sophomore Author Arkansas Posts:155 Points:37,530 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:43:09 AM	Ignore Caspertherat Report Abuse
	So we start using Diesel and they will start jacking the price up as quickly as they can.
herbie1NC All-Star Author North Carolina Posts:683 Points:142,635 Joined:Jun 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:42:19 AM	Ignore herbie1NC Report Abuse
	Diesel has taken a hit
cableman31 All-Star Author New York Posts:823 Points:440,600 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:39:05 AM	Ignore cableman31 Report Abuse
	Many years ago diesel was very cheap. Than the started with additional taxes. Today diesel is more expensive but is also much but is cheaper in the long run.
FFootdoc12 Veteran Author Illinois Posts:255 Points:41,230 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:38:52 AM	Ignore FFootdoc12 Report Abuse
	its gonna be an interesting ride
EZExit Veteran Author Phoenix Posts:372 Points:94,025 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:38:43 AM	Ignore EZExit Report Abuse
	I remember when diesel was a whole lot cheaper than gasoline...
Gassipper30mpg Veteran Author Rhode Island Posts:434 Points:114,135 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:37:27 AM	Ignore Gassipper30mpg Report Abuse
	Gas still comming down here. $3.31 per gal.
Japsmith All-Star Author Tacoma Posts:911 Points:169,790 Joined:Sep 2007	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:36:56 AM	Ignore Japsmith Report Abuse
	w4kh, when you can only extract 9.83 gallons of diesel versus 19.3 gallons of gasoline from a barrel of crude, you are limited in how cheap you can sell the lesser of the two. Especially when the demand of what you have less of grows. So if diesel becomes more widespread, the price has no place to go but up. Supply and demand my friend is how things work for 99.9999999% of things we buy.
mattf373 All-Star Author Atlanta Posts:606 Points:115,720 Joined:Mar 2003	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:35:56 AM	Ignore mattf373 Report Abuse
	forget disel
qaqcsup Champion Author Michigan Posts:3,321 Points:142,560 Joined:Jun 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:34:16 AM	Ignore qaqcsup Report Abuse
	Must be the guys doing the talking in this article must have stock with other types of energy.
r651981 All-Star Author Columbus Posts:502 Points:426,700 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:34:00 AM	Ignore r651981 Report Abuse
	Non-renewable fossil fuels are not part of the long term solution. Clean diesel engines can burn clean diesel fuels not saddled with the higher costs associated with current diesel fuel.
eaglev Champion Author Oklahoma City Posts:1,033 Points:343,070 Joined:Jul 2005	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:33:54 AM	Ignore eaglev Report Abuse
	There is more federal tax on diesel than gasoline
laddyboy62 Champion Author Riverside Posts:1,631 Points:1,004,285 Joined:Mar 2005	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:33:45 AM	Ignore laddyboy62 Report Abuse
	everything must be on the table
NissanGirl Veteran Author Oregon Posts:304 Points:170,830 Joined:Jan 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:33:01 AM	Ignore NissanGirl Report Abuse
	I don't understand how diesel costs more than gas. They don't have to do anything special to get diesel. When they take crude and refine it to gas, what's leftover is diesel. Ridiculous.
tags610 Champion Author Lincoln Posts:2,408 Points:530,275 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:31:15 AM	Ignore tags610 Report Abuse
	??
tigeriz Veteran Author Maine Posts:302 Points:73,145 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:28:57 AM	Ignore tigeriz Report Abuse
	old news here.
w4kh Champion Author Riverside Posts:3,715 Points:651,870 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:27:55 AM	Ignore w4kh Report Abuse
	However, if diesel fuel were to become more widespread (and cleaner and more economical) the price would fall as refineries produced more in longer refining runs... Here, at two places, diesel is $3.57/gallon vs $3.37 for 87 octane unleaded gasoline... if diesel replaced gasoline as the fuel of choice, that margin would flip-flop... We still need to kick our Oil Addiction and move to alternative transportation fuels and methods
EZExit Veteran Author Phoenix Posts:372 Points:94,025 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:26:46 AM	Ignore EZExit Report Abuse
	Clydesdale, well put! Now if only we had money available for development so that we might put operations like that in business...
Japsmith All-Star Author Tacoma Posts:911 Points:169,790 Joined:Sep 2007	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:22:19 AM	Ignore Japsmith Report Abuse
	Clydesdale, you are right in some ways. Ignorance is a factor. Some on my part, but some on your part as well. If you look at the breakdown of a barrel of oil, you will notice that you extract twice the amount of gas than you do diesel. And right now the demand for gas is higher than diesel as expected. But if you add these new diesel cars in the US, you now are competing for a small amount of diesel that is already priced higher. Supply and demand dictates that the price of current diesel prices will cause it to rise. Knowing this is even the reason why Ford who is about to sell a diesel car, is not even going to offer it in the US for now. So as efficient as the diesel car can be, the price of diesel in the US market is too unstable to even those in the auto industry to chance it for now.
Arktander All-Star Author Illinois Posts:639 Points:366,065 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:18:07 AM	Ignore Arktander Report Abuse
	It's not long term because all oil-based energy is not long term. We'll eventually run out so there has to be alternatives.
Clydesdale Sophomore Author Maryland Posts:114 Points:220,405 Joined:Feb 2006	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:10:30 AM	Ignore Clydesdale Report Abuse
	Ignorance is not the long term solution either - as some, including this article, seem to believe. Diesel engines are between 30 and 40% more efficient than gas engines. Diesel fuel is between 10 - 20% more expensive than gas. Often times less than that when comparing premium gas to diesel. Therefore, diesel is still cheaper to use than gas. This is with US congress has passing laws making diesel more expensive to produce as well as being taxed at a higher rate. Biodiesel can be produced from algae in quantities large enough to easily fuel the USA. This can be done using small portions wastelands (not usable for crops or animals), such as the Nevada desert. See the papers by the University of New Hampshire for reference.
traindude All-Star Author Virginia Beach Posts:600 Points:191,820 Joined:Jun 2007	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:09:02 AM	Ignore traindude Report Abuse
	i will disagree! diesels can run on other fuels other than just petrol diesel. still don't know why diesel prices are more expensive, but now i don't care....i'm using a bio fuel
rockinrog All-Star Author Ontario Posts:888 Points:690,655 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:08:49 AM	Ignore rockinrog Report Abuse
	Bizarre thinking!
unicornpmb Veteran Author Buffalo Posts:310 Points:34,635 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:04:56 AM	Ignore unicornpmb Report Abuse
	I think the U.S. Energy Information Administration should check again. In some places it is almost a dollar a gallon more.
amacquarrie Veteran Author Nevada Posts:353 Points:81,235 Joined:Jun 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:02:24 AM	Ignore amacquarrie Report Abuse
	they realized that diesel engines are more efficient so they raised the price to equal out.
gasman50 Champion Author Portland Posts:1,358 Points:830,350 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:02:00 AM	Ignore gasman50 Report Abuse
	Time will tell
andyrew Sophomore Author Baltimore Posts:247 Points:80,615 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:00:53 AM	Ignore andyrew Report Abuse
	diesel will remain hi as long as there is a war going on that sucks it up like it was water. when that usage eases off, then prices at the pump will come down. but that really isn't a great solution as diesel puts a lot more crap into the air than gasoline. when you can see a black cloud come out of a diesel car/truck/van... you know it can't be good
Kthyme Champion Author Fort Worth Posts:2,731 Points:887,315 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 10:00:18 AM	Ignore Kthyme Report Abuse
	LONG TERM SOLUTION: DRILL HERE... DRILL NOW... PAY LESS!!! ;)
bluebird1 Champion Author Toronto Posts:7,409 Points:1,509,550 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 9:59:29 AM	Ignore bluebird1 Report Abuse
	This headline is only partially right...as in hopefully in real longterm we have a magic solution like cheap & available hydrogen or something. However, what Europe is doing is right & our regulators are wrong for short & medium term. A 10% margin of diesel over gas still makes 30-40% more efficiency worthwhile. This margin is artificial - it takes less processing for processing. Availability can be changed as part of a barrel can be used either way & usually goes to gas in summer, more to heating oil in winter. Diesels can use bio-diesel in just about any mix with little modifications. Bio-diesel can be made easier than ethanol & gets same mpg as diesel. Can even run diesels straight on used cooking oil with minor mods (like fuel heater, tank to run diesel for startup/shutdown etc). The crops needed to produce bio-diesel is at least as efficient as using corn without directly impacting fuel supply. If more was done with diesel (including tax breaks rather than higher taxes) then would be less impact on sale of goods as delivery would be cheaper. There was an article past weekend of testing a Suzuki SX4 AWD diesel (not sold in N.A.) whereby in rural/highway driving got over 62 mpg avg. Overall for a long 2 day trip was 51 mpg, that including stuck in city congestion a couple times. And this vehicle on doing price conversion (not that it would be the price if offered here) was $8,000 less than cheapest hybrid SUV/Crossover. So DON'T put much faith on the slant of this article.
GasaHawg Veteran Author Texas Posts:477 Points:95,655 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 9:59:13 AM	Ignore GasaHawg Report Abuse
	Diesel used to be priced much less than gas. The demand increased and so did the price. You can't win for losing.
JMJarvis1952 Veteran Author Houston Posts:322 Points:133,885 Joined:Jan 2008	Message Posted: 10/8/2008 9:58:22 AM	Ignore JMJarvis1952 Report Abuse
	ah how true